Talk 25.
On a former occasion B. V. Narasimha Swami, author of Self-Realization, asked: Who am I? How is it to be found?
M.: Ask yourself the question. The body (annamaya kosa) and its functions are not ‘I’.
Going deeper, the mind (manomaya kosa) and its functions are not ‘I’.
The next step takes on to the question. “Wherefrom do these thoughts arise?” The thoughts are spontaneous, superficial or analytical. They operate in intellect. Then, who is aware of them? The analysis leads to the conclusion that the individuality of the person is operative as the perceiver of the existence of thoughts and of their sequence.This individuality is the ego, or as people say ‘I’. Vijnanamaya kosa (intellect) is only the sheath of ‘I’ and not the ‘I’ itself.
Enquiring further the questions arise, “Who is this ‘I’? Wherefrom does it come?” ‘I’ was not aware in sleep. Simultaneously with its rise sleep changes to dream or wakefulness. If I originated from sleep, then the ‘I’ was covered up with ignorance. Such an ignorant ‘I’ cannot be what the scriptures say or the wise ones affirm.‘I’ am beyond even ‘Sleep’; ‘I’ must be now and here and what I was all along in sleep and dreams also, without the qualities of such
states. ‘I’ must therefore be the unqualified substratum underlying these three states (anandamaya kosa transcended).
‘I’ is, in brief, beyond the five sheaths. Next, the residuum left over after discarding all that is not-self is the Self, Sat-Chit-Ananda.
D.: How is that Self to be known or realised?
M.: Transcend the present plane of relativity. A separate being (Self) appears to know something apart from itself (non-Self). That is, the subject is aware of the object. The seer is drik; the seen is drisya.
There must be a unity underlying these two, which arises as ‘ego’.This ego is of the nature of chit (intelligence); achit (insentient object) is only negation of chit. Therefore the underlying essence is akin to the subject and not the object. Seeking the drik, until all
drisya disappears, the drik will become subtler and subtler until the absolute drik alone survives. This process is called drisya vilaya (the disappearance of the objective world).
D.: Why should the objects drisya be eliminated? Cannot the Truth be realised even keeping the object as it is?
M.: No. Elimination of drisya means elimination of separate identities of the subject and object. The object is unreal. All drisya (including ego) is the object. Eliminating the unreal, the Reality survives.When a rope is mistaken for a snake, it is enough to remove the
erroneous perception of the snake for the truth to be revealed.Without such elimination the truth will not dawn.
D.: When and how is the disappearance of the objective world (drisya vilaya) to be effected?
M.: It is complete when the relative subject, namely the mind, is eliminated. The mind is the creator of the subject and the object and is the cause of the dualistic idea. Therefore, it is the cause of the wrong notion of limited self and the misery consequent on such erroneous idea.
D.: What is the relation between mind and object? Is the mind contacting something different from it, viz., the world?
M.: The world is ‘sensed’ in the waking and the dream states or is the object of perception and thought, both being mental activities.
If there were no such activities as waking and dreaming thought, there would be no ‘perception’ or inference of a ‘world’. In sleep there is no such activity and ‘objects and world’ do not exist for us in sleep.Hence ‘reality of the world’ may be created by the ego by its act of emergence from sleep; and that reality may be swallowed up or disappear by the soul resuming its nature in sleep. The emergence and disappearance of the world are like the spider producing a gossamer web and then withdrawing it.
The spider here underlies all the three states - waking, dreaming, and sleep; such a spider in
the person is called Atman (Self), whereas the same with reference to the world (which is considered to issue from the sun) is called Brahman (Supreme Spirit). He that is in man is the same as He that is in the sun. (Sa yaschayam purushe yaschasavaditye sa ekah).
While Self or Spirit is unmanifest and inactive, there are no relative doubles; e.g., subject and object - drik and drisya. If the enquiry into the ultimate cause of manifestation of mind itself is pushed on,mind will be found to be only the manifestation of the Real which is
otherwise called Atman or Brahman.
Source: Talks With Ramana Maharshi Book
On a former occasion B. V. Narasimha Swami, author of Self-Realization, asked: Who am I? How is it to be found?
M.: Ask yourself the question. The body (annamaya kosa) and its functions are not ‘I’.
Going deeper, the mind (manomaya kosa) and its functions are not ‘I’.
The next step takes on to the question. “Wherefrom do these thoughts arise?” The thoughts are spontaneous, superficial or analytical. They operate in intellect. Then, who is aware of them? The analysis leads to the conclusion that the individuality of the person is operative as the perceiver of the existence of thoughts and of their sequence.This individuality is the ego, or as people say ‘I’. Vijnanamaya kosa (intellect) is only the sheath of ‘I’ and not the ‘I’ itself.
Enquiring further the questions arise, “Who is this ‘I’? Wherefrom does it come?” ‘I’ was not aware in sleep. Simultaneously with its rise sleep changes to dream or wakefulness. If I originated from sleep, then the ‘I’ was covered up with ignorance. Such an ignorant ‘I’ cannot be what the scriptures say or the wise ones affirm.‘I’ am beyond even ‘Sleep’; ‘I’ must be now and here and what I was all along in sleep and dreams also, without the qualities of such
states. ‘I’ must therefore be the unqualified substratum underlying these three states (anandamaya kosa transcended).
‘I’ is, in brief, beyond the five sheaths. Next, the residuum left over after discarding all that is not-self is the Self, Sat-Chit-Ananda.
D.: How is that Self to be known or realised?
M.: Transcend the present plane of relativity. A separate being (Self) appears to know something apart from itself (non-Self). That is, the subject is aware of the object. The seer is drik; the seen is drisya.
There must be a unity underlying these two, which arises as ‘ego’.This ego is of the nature of chit (intelligence); achit (insentient object) is only negation of chit. Therefore the underlying essence is akin to the subject and not the object. Seeking the drik, until all
drisya disappears, the drik will become subtler and subtler until the absolute drik alone survives. This process is called drisya vilaya (the disappearance of the objective world).
D.: Why should the objects drisya be eliminated? Cannot the Truth be realised even keeping the object as it is?
M.: No. Elimination of drisya means elimination of separate identities of the subject and object. The object is unreal. All drisya (including ego) is the object. Eliminating the unreal, the Reality survives.When a rope is mistaken for a snake, it is enough to remove the
erroneous perception of the snake for the truth to be revealed.Without such elimination the truth will not dawn.
D.: When and how is the disappearance of the objective world (drisya vilaya) to be effected?
M.: It is complete when the relative subject, namely the mind, is eliminated. The mind is the creator of the subject and the object and is the cause of the dualistic idea. Therefore, it is the cause of the wrong notion of limited self and the misery consequent on such erroneous idea.
D.: What is the relation between mind and object? Is the mind contacting something different from it, viz., the world?
M.: The world is ‘sensed’ in the waking and the dream states or is the object of perception and thought, both being mental activities.
If there were no such activities as waking and dreaming thought, there would be no ‘perception’ or inference of a ‘world’. In sleep there is no such activity and ‘objects and world’ do not exist for us in sleep.Hence ‘reality of the world’ may be created by the ego by its act of emergence from sleep; and that reality may be swallowed up or disappear by the soul resuming its nature in sleep. The emergence and disappearance of the world are like the spider producing a gossamer web and then withdrawing it.
The spider here underlies all the three states - waking, dreaming, and sleep; such a spider in
the person is called Atman (Self), whereas the same with reference to the world (which is considered to issue from the sun) is called Brahman (Supreme Spirit). He that is in man is the same as He that is in the sun. (Sa yaschayam purushe yaschasavaditye sa ekah).
While Self or Spirit is unmanifest and inactive, there are no relative doubles; e.g., subject and object - drik and drisya. If the enquiry into the ultimate cause of manifestation of mind itself is pushed on,mind will be found to be only the manifestation of the Real which is
otherwise called Atman or Brahman.
Source: Talks With Ramana Maharshi Book
Ramana Maharshi Says Waking State Will Not Appear A Dream Till We Wake Up Into Jnana
8-9-45 Morning
Another Visitor: It is said that our waking life is also a dream, similar to our dream during sleep. But in our dreams we make no conscious effort to get rid of the dream and to awake, but the dream itself comes to an end without any effort on our part and we become awake. Similarly why should not the waking state, which is in reality only another sort of dream, come to an end of its own accord, and without any effort on our part, and land us in jnana or real awakening?
Bhagavan: Your thinking that you have to make an effort to get rid of this dream of the waking state and your making efforts to attain jnana or real awakening are all parts of the dream. When you attain jnana you will see there was neither the dream during sleep, nor the waking state, but only yourself and your real state.
Devotee pressed Bhagavan, “But what is the answer to the question? Why should not the waking state also pass like our dreams without any effort on our part and land us in jnana, as a dream passes off and leaves us awake?”
Bhagavan: Who can say that the dream passed off of its own accord? If the dream came on, as is generally supposed, as the result of our past thoughts or karma, probably the same karma also decides how long it should last and how after that time it should cease.
Devotee was still unsatisfied and, as the result of further talk with Bhagavan,and he feels that the waking state, though a sort of dream,is clearly distinct from the dream during sleep in this, namely that during dream it never occurs to us that it is a dream, whereas in the waking state we are able to argue and understand from books and gurus and from some phenomena that it may be only dream after all. Because of this, it may be our duty to make an effort to wake into jnana.
Bhagavan says that we don’t deem a dream, a dream till we wake up, that the dream looks quite real while it lasts; and that similarly this waking state will not appear a dream till we wake up into jnana.Because of the above difference between the dream and the waking states, our effort is called for.
Source: DAY BY DAY WITH BHAGAVAN By A. DEVARAJA MUDALIAR
Another Visitor: It is said that our waking life is also a dream, similar to our dream during sleep. But in our dreams we make no conscious effort to get rid of the dream and to awake, but the dream itself comes to an end without any effort on our part and we become awake. Similarly why should not the waking state, which is in reality only another sort of dream, come to an end of its own accord, and without any effort on our part, and land us in jnana or real awakening?
Bhagavan: Your thinking that you have to make an effort to get rid of this dream of the waking state and your making efforts to attain jnana or real awakening are all parts of the dream. When you attain jnana you will see there was neither the dream during sleep, nor the waking state, but only yourself and your real state.
Devotee pressed Bhagavan, “But what is the answer to the question? Why should not the waking state also pass like our dreams without any effort on our part and land us in jnana, as a dream passes off and leaves us awake?”
Bhagavan: Who can say that the dream passed off of its own accord? If the dream came on, as is generally supposed, as the result of our past thoughts or karma, probably the same karma also decides how long it should last and how after that time it should cease.
Devotee was still unsatisfied and, as the result of further talk with Bhagavan,and he feels that the waking state, though a sort of dream,is clearly distinct from the dream during sleep in this, namely that during dream it never occurs to us that it is a dream, whereas in the waking state we are able to argue and understand from books and gurus and from some phenomena that it may be only dream after all. Because of this, it may be our duty to make an effort to wake into jnana.
Bhagavan says that we don’t deem a dream, a dream till we wake up, that the dream looks quite real while it lasts; and that similarly this waking state will not appear a dream till we wake up into jnana.Because of the above difference between the dream and the waking states, our effort is called for.
Source: DAY BY DAY WITH BHAGAVAN By A. DEVARAJA MUDALIAR
